-Guess we need to talk about the Katie/Greg ATFR confrontation now, don’t we? Wonderful. Because people really can seem to digest this whole thing, rationally look at it, discuss it calmly, and come to one conclusion. Look, the whole thing sucked. If I were Greg, I would have never wanted to be there. If I’m Katie, I don’t want to talk to him either. But they had to because that’s the show and we got that dumpster fire. It wasn’t fun to watch, it certainly wasn’t fun for either of them participating I’m sure, but it happened, and now everyone has to have some sort of hot take on it. And whatever take you may have, someone will tell you you’re wrong for feeling that way, so this seems like an effort in futility here.
-First off, lets remember that this ATFR was filmed Friday, July 23rd. It wasn’t until the Aug. 2nd episode last week that us the viewers saw the Greg/Katie fight. Which means that before they went on stage on that Friday, Katie and Greg had just been shown the footage of the episode. Just to add a little perspective. I’m not picking a winner or loser here. I’m not saying one person who that fight last night and another person didn’t. Or who looked better than who. I don’t care who did and it’s all subjective anyway. Go look around online last night. If people like Katie, they love the way she stood up for herself last night and glad she told Greg off. If you’re a Greg backer, you absolutely think and expressed that Katie looked horrible, she’s unhinged, she’s still in love with Greg, and everything else they were saying. So there’s no right or wrong answer here. Everyone has a different opinion on what they saw. Here’s mine:
-I believe Katie made great points in what she was saying. She said he kept needing validation and she was giving him that all season: first impression rose, first date, front runner status, telling him he was advancing to the next week. Those are all factually correct points. You can’t dispute those. And if that doesn’t cement in Greg’s head that clearly Katie was into him, then either he doesn’t know how the show works, or, he’s looking for even more which Katie wasn’t going to give him. He kept saying he didn’t need her to shut down the show, or to dump everyone else, but then he’d never clarify exactly what it was he needed. He wasn’t great at communicating what it was he wanted. She gave him all the validation he needed all season long. If he can’t see that, that’s on him.
-I also believe that Katie needed to tone it down a little last night. She has every right to feel angry at the guy. She has every right to be mad at him. But do I think she could’ve delivered that differently last night? 100%. Doesn’t mean she’s still in love with him (which is a horrible take in my mind) and it doesn’t mean she still cares about him. Why does equating her being mad at him mean she’s in love with him still? Really? Because in the very next segment when Blake came out, Greg’s name was never brought up, her mood changed, she was happy, she was sad, and they seem to be moving on with their life. I just don’t understand this argument that Katie is in love with Greg still. Please. That makes no sense.
-I just wish Katie would’ve taken a more “I’m a catch, you boned out on me, that’s your loss, I’m living my best life right now, boy bye” approach. She didn’t HAVE to come at him as hard as she did last night even though she was upset having just watched that breakup before going out on stage. Also, bringing up the word “gaslighting” again in that situation didn’t need to be done. I know that Katie feels that she was, but, I also don’t think Katie truly knows what the definition of it is. I just don’t think one argument in your first fight with someone is comparable to someone who was actually gaslighted for months and/or years in a relationship by a partner. Sorry. She needs to stop throwing that word around so loosely because it’s doing a disservice to women who have been in MUCH worse fights/arguments with a significant other.
-Greg is not a good communicator. That’s what I found very apparent watching the last 2 weeks of episodes. I still don’t know what he wanted from Katie in that conversation where he went to his room. He says he basically didn’t want Katie the “Bachelorette,” but I’m sorry, she HAS to play that role. He couldn’t get over that part and it does matter in this situation. Whether fair or not, this isn’t reality. You’re on a TV show. If you can’t accept the role that the lead has to play when they’re in that situation, and for the most part, they aren’t allowed to just come out whenever they want to and spill their guts, then you don’t understand the show.
deborahsilver
August 10, 2021 at 9:28 AM
Greg was real with her, just because Katie was the bachelorette does not elevate her to more important than he is, both sides have an equal stake and responsibility to tell each other how they are feeling, in response to declarations by the other. If she was unwilling to respond appropriately, tell him she loved him, or that his declaration of love meant everything, more than he’ll ever know (which is precisely what she said to Justin, when he complimented her), then Greg was free to tell her he deserved more than she was giving him. She was way out of bounds in accusing him last night that he was faking everything with her, that he was a liar for saying he loved her. I just don’t like her behavior. Greg was mature, and had every right to express his sadness over her lack of an appropriate response when he professed his love to her. The only reason she didn’t try similar bull with Blake was because she learned her lesson with Greg, and Blake would have been out of there if she dared to withhold an appropriate response from him. She should be thanking Greg, but instead she trashes him. I doubt she and Blake will last long, she’s is too into herself, a ticking time bomb, when she doesn’t get her way. The end. I am not impressed. At all. Greg deserves better.
ctrealitygirl
August 10, 2021 at 10:37 AM
I wholly agree with you deborahsilver! Watching last night’s ATFR was torturous. In all the years I’ve watched Bachelor finales/ATFR, I’ve never seen a lead -especially a bachelorette – act so full of themselves. Every time she decalred, “I’m the Bachelorette…” I wanted to throw something at my screen! Where the hell does she come off acting so entitled? And, thank God RS finally agreed that Katie was misusign the term “gaslighting.” She wasn’t even close to the definition of gaslighting. How many other men in the final 3 have gotten emotional/upset when it comes to Fantasy Suite dates and they woman they’ve fallen in love with are about to shack up with the other two? She’s the one who led him to believe all season that she was falling for him (she even stated that very early on.) So, what did she expect? And her stating that Greg was merely acting was absurd. And how about how she “acted”…crying hysterically to Kaitlyn and the producers that she wanted to book a flight home, she couldn’t go on, yada, yada, yada. Then the next day she leaps onto Blake and wraps her legs around him, then later on is spewing how much she loves him. Wait, what? So, in a 24 hour period, she had an Aha moment that she was madly in love with Blake? Talk about acting! I think Katie was the most immature bachelorettes they’ve had. This morning I read an article where she and Greg are boasting about how many times they’ve had sex. I think she’s trying way too hard to convince people that she truly is in love with him. Sex does not equal being love. If they’re going to do the long-distance thing, I predict they’re broken up before the holidays. I’ve never had less interest in the outcome of a season. Heck, I even enjoyed Nick’s finale more than Katie’s. SO damn glad I don’t have to see her face on the screen any more!! Good riddance. Sure hope ABC learned a lesson and be more careful with who they choose for their leads. Steve wanted to know where all the comments were this morning. Did he ever think that maybe people just don’t care?
sweetpea4868
August 10, 2021 at 12:06 PM
I may have the wrong definition of “gaslighting” but I don’t think it has to be a long term relationship and manipulation over many years to occur. I dated a guy briefly who did a number of “questionable” things. When I’d question him, he’d make me feel like I was being ridiculous for questioning him – to the point where I felt like I must have been so wrong and felt terrible about confronting him. Looking back now, my thoughts and feelings were completely rational and I’m certain that he was lying to and manipulating me. The things he said to me were so outrageous but in the moment, I believed him because he made me feel so insane for thinking otherwise. That is gaslighting even though it was a very short term relationship. It can certainly happen in a single conversation over a single event. Women are more likely than men to take blame upon themselves – some men knowingly take advantage of that. Some men do it unintentionally. I know everyone is tired of the term, like everyone is tired of “me too” but it is nice to have some attention brought to it so everyone can be more aware that it happens too frequently.
It is possible that Greg made Katie feel like her recollection of the events was wrong, especially when she felt so certain that she had given him all of the right signs – especially since he flipped the switch so quickly and walked away over something so seemingly small. It is also possible that Greg didn’t mean to actively make her feel that way – it was just a byproduct of the way the conversation unfolded. As you said in your column, Greg isn’t good at communicating and we still don’t really know what happened. It’s a tough breakup for both people and I hope they find happiness.
Flash1007
August 10, 2021 at 12:39 PM
Very well said, deborahsilver. There are no villains here, just two very disappointed people. Katie assumed Greg was all-in and he was…until her unfortunate fluffy response to his dramatic proclamation. He came to the conclusion, wrongly or rightly, that she was playing The Bachelorette role more than just being herself and he couldn’t trust that her feelings were the same as his. He self-ejected rather than risk being rejected by the woman he felt was his soul mate. I think many of us have done the same thing, or would have, in the same situation.
As for Katie, I think she felt blindsided and didn’t understand that Greg had lost his trust in her. (And I think the word everyone was looking for was “blindsided”, not “gaslighted”, as Steve pointed out.) In trying to understand how Greg could possibly have left her, her pain and anger led her to conclude that he had lied to her about his feelings. Which is exactly what Greg was thinking about Katie. How terribly ironic.
“Trust is like that. You can break it for a good reason but it still remains broken.”
– Harlan Coben
jlal
August 10, 2021 at 1:01 PM
Okay, I hate to throw shade on anyone’s looks, but what the he’ll has Kaitlyn done to her face? Way too much botox and fillers. She is so pretty, but now looks like a mannequin. Her face barely moves when she talks. I hope she eases up and goes back to a more natural look. Some lines add interest and character.
adelina
August 10, 2021 at 1:22 PM
Katie definitely went too hard on Greg but I also understand her belated reaction after watching it back and time passing. Whatever you want to call it – in my opinion his proclamation followed by demands and accusations did seem to come out of nowhere. And…I have to agree with Katie, he made leaving too easy which can only mean he wasn’t invested.
I also don’t understand the Blake attraction and don’t think it’ll last.
tinyred500
August 10, 2021 at 2:19 PM
@deborahsilver and ctrealitygirl,
I agree with you both!
@jlal,
That’s what the controversy was about a few weeks back when Jason came out and defended Kaitlyn. Only he made zero mention of the fact that people were mostly commenting on the ‘changes’ she’s made to her appearance and not her general appearance etc. I agree, her face looks static and now looks like so many other women who fill their faces with fillers etc and get veneers. Each to their own, it’s their face and body, I don’t necessarily think they look either younger or better for it though. :o/
kirsybrat
August 10, 2021 at 6:55 PM
Everyone’s needs are different. Greg needed verbal validation and there is nothing wrong with that. Katie acted like a spoiled child trying to cause hurt to Greg by saying the things she did. If she was so happy she wouldn’t be so heartless, and if she can be, I feel for Blake. I have said to someone do this again and that’s it, and they saw it as an ultimatum, and I said then, no it’s the truth and you need to be aware. She acted like a. Spoiled child, not an adult.
notsoplainjane
August 10, 2021 at 8:28 PM
Thank you, Steve for your comments about the “g” word. I’m not surprised Katie used it and continued to play the “victim” as she had throughout the season. As a “survivor” myself, I hope Katie gets some counseling. She clearly has anger issues. I’ve watched every episode of this franchise from the start and have followed your site for years…This season of the Bachelorette was produced horribly. So obviously phony! And Katie came off as a judgmental, entitled, unappealing brat. My least favorite Bachelorette ever! Re: producing/editing… Did Greg ever bring up the fact that he saw Katie making out with Blake before the big overblown “blowout?” We saw his reaction to that little producer “set-up” and then…nothing. And I thought Greg’s decision to leave after Katie’s cold reaction when he declared his feelings was understandable. As I recall, Andrew wasn’t all that receptive either when she offered him “another chance.” (Sorry, Katie, you’re not “all that.”) And Katie’s rude behavior on ATFR showed her immaturity. Physically turning her back on Greg?! Please! You’re thirty years old, not thirteen! Good luck, Blake. You’re gonna need it. (And maybe, a job??!!! ) Sorry. Getting off my soapbox. Can’t believe I got so worked by a stupid TV show. LOL!
caitycat
August 10, 2021 at 9:15 PM
I 100% agree with your thoughts on Katie and Greg. Neither one is perfect, both had some valid points, both made mistakes, both coulda/shoulda/woulda done some things differently. It seems like it worked out for the best, ultimately. If your guy is walking out the door, that’s not your guy. Can we all move on??
jlal
August 11, 2021 at 4:13 AM
Thanks tinyred500, I don’t do social media so had no idea this was already being talked about. I love Kaitlyn. She has always been one of my favorites but I hadn’t seen her for awhile. Was just shocked at how much botox/fillers she has had. She doesn’t need all that, it actually takes away from her natural beauty.
As for the Katie/Greg thing, I think Katie cared for him but knew he wasn’t “the one” and Greg could sense that fact. That is why she wouldn’t/couldn’t give him more and why he bailed. I do think she was a bit brutal on the ATFR. Attacking him like that was uncalled for and just reflected back negatively on her.
ctrealitygirl
August 11, 2021 at 11:41 AM
Like you, jlal, I love Kaitlyn and also noticed her changed looks co-hosting with Tayshia. I could not figure out how her looks could change so much since she did Dancing with the Stars earlier this year. She looked gorgeous on DWTS. And standing next to Tayshia, it’s even more noticeable, as Tayshia looked stunning all season. I keep looking at her eyes and sad to see they’re not sparkly like usual. And I always liked her with darker hair but it always looked a mess on the show. It made me very sad.
kmy01
August 11, 2021 at 1:13 PM
The term gaslighting was used because it is when a person does or says something (usually hurtful to the other) and when questioned or called on it, they say it was misinterpreted or it was the other’s fault in the first place. Between Greg and Katie, he initially “spilled his heart” in a very effusive way and when she didn’t respond in the same way, plus didn’t give him the words he wanted to hear, he flipped a switch and became cold, blamed her for “not being on the same page” and generally started dogging her. It seemed after such a nice comfortable time with his family, she was trying to “listen” and also could have been trying to understand his effusive behavior and why that had changed from the comfortable casual way they had been. I remember thinking he was feeling pressure from his mom to say something because other’s may have already declared their love for her. Instead of just being honest and saying that to her and what he was hoping to hear from HER, set set up this elaborate emotional production to get her to read his mind and tell him she loves him. He didn’t accept ANYTHING else.
Secondly, he knew how the show progresses. He pushed the issue because HE needed it on his timetable. Katie seemed she was trying to understand the shift but wasn’t responding in any way. She was processing. I can understand that.
Third, it comes down to issues with not understanding how to communicate. And expectations. Having learned a very specific tool in communicating during conflict, any time a person uses the term “you” made me feel,v”uou” did this, etc. It makes the other person defensive and shuts down good listening and open communication. The assumption and blame is huge part of this. Rather Greg could have said “I feel hurt” or “I need this from you” and explain why instead of you did this to me. It’s the biggest breakdown in communicating everywhere. The second biggest thing is expectations and hoping believing if it’s love, the other person will read their mind and give them what they want or need. And these alternatives so often used are manipulations and gaslighting (sorry). The reason why you may think it’s only in long term relationships, Steve, is because it erodes self esteem and the person (often women) lose respect and belief that their instincts are right and the manipulator must be right. This goes hand in hand with narcissistic behavior, too. But “g” can happen in one or two sentences and a person who isn’t codependent and is strong in themselves will see/feel this red flag right away.
Perhaps Katie may have been trying to process her gut reactions to Greg’s unhealthy communicating (because she’s been in that position before, and may have been recognizing things were going sideways with Greg).
rob22
August 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM
In the context of the real world, what Greg did may make sense. If you go all in on someone and they give you a tepid response, you might realize that she’s not that into you & back out. Two problems. One, they aren’t in the real world. So, for two decades, leads have been giving tepid responses to declarations of love. You only get full validation at the end (most of the time). Two, if someone does give a tepid response, even in the real world, it could just be that the person doesn’t know how to react. It’s certainly something that could be discussed and overcome. In fact, reacting inappropriately to things that happen during a relationship happens ALL THE TIME. The key is working through it. Greg just switched off. Nothing Katie said was going to make a difference. So, the reality is that Greg (1) acted like he wasn’t on a reality show where one guy gets validation at the end and (2) showed that he wasn’t mature enough to handle miscommunications or mistakes by his partner. Katie dodged a bullet. And that should have been her take away. So when she had her confrontation with Greg, it should have been much about how he really wasn’t it & she ended up with the right person in the end. Her angry response didn’t really fit. I can only assume that production really amped her up with anger and sent her out there for a showdown. Because her response didn’t make any sense in light of her engagement and having several months to realize that Greg was never a fit.