The episode started with the conclusion of last week and Madison telling Peter her thoughts on where she stood heading into overnight dates. Did she express herself clearly? Not really. She said she didn’t want to give him an ultimatum, Peter said in an interview taped after the WTA he didn’t think it was an ultimatum, yet Chris Harrison essentially thinks it was. And I think a lot of you do. I guess we’re getting down to semantics here on what exactly an ultimatum was. I felt she expressed her morals and her beliefs to him in a way that made him aware of how she felt. Yes, she said it’d be tough for her to continue forward, but it wasn’t blatant of “If you have sex, I’m walking out.” I think that’s where the disconnect is with a lot of people when it comes to this issue because most people are looking at it as black and white, when I don’t think it’s that simple at all.
Madison has every right to express how she felt once she realized she would now be in the final 3 and heading to overnight dates. Peter also has a right to pursue his other two relationships that are still there in Hannah Ann and Victoria. I don’t think either of them were right, nor do I think either of them were wrong. Sure, some people if they were in Peter’s shoes, wouldn’t have done what he did. Which is fine. But it doesn’t mean he was 100% in the wrong. Why is he not allowed to explore his other relationships? And why isn’t Madison allowed to be open and honest to Peter about her belief system as they head into a very critical week of dates? The way I looked at the whole thing was that I just don’t think the two of them would be compatible in the long term. They have two different ideas on the values of sex in a relationship. I brought this up on a couple recent podcasts, but I don’t get the impression that Peter would be able to be with someone that he couldn’t have sex with until their wedding night. That’s the impression I get. Maybe he’ll end up proving me wrong. Maybe he wants to shed that label. I don’t know. I’m just saying he doesn’t strike me as someone who wants a partner who feels that way about sex. And on the flip side, I think Madison needs someone who is on the same, or at least similar path, that she is on religiously. I don’t believe Peter is that guy.
This notion that “Madison should’ve known what she signed up for,” and “did she not watch last season” is a really horrible argument. She’s allowed to go on this show for the adventure and see where it takes her. Maybe she never thought she’d last as far as she did. So once she got to that point, that’s why she shared with Peter her expectations. I think it’s a completely different argument of saying she should’ve never come on the show in the first place versus what she told Peter before overnight dates. It’s definitely a slippery slope. She can still go on the show if she wants, but, she just has to be aware that sex COULD become an issue once you reach that point. Maybe Madison never thought that far ahead, or, maybe she didn’t think it’d pertain to her. I’m not sure. Madison knew Peter was the “Bachelor.” She even told him on the first night she was hoping it’d be him. So clearly his sexual past with Hannah Brown wasn’t an issue with her. It’s what he did going forward that she was more concerned with. I think this issue can be debated until the end of time. What I do know is that someone who is waiting for marriage to have sex is going to face a major hurdle if they last long enough in this show. They have to know this going in, we’ve seen it talked about ad nauseum this season and past seasons, and they can’t be shocked or so put off by it when it gets to that point. Madison has every right to live her life the way she chooses. She also has to understand that a show like this isn’t the most conducive to feeding into her life choices. It just isn’t. We know this. And it seemed like either she didn’t, or wasn’t thinking that far ahead. But, that doesn’t mean she’s not allowed to or shouldn’t go on the show. Personally if it were me and that was my life choice, I wouldn’t put myself in that position in the first place. But if she wants to experience the show, who am I to tell her no?
One thing I definitely applaud Madison for from last night that is kinda going unnoticed is that did you realize at no point last night did she ever call out Hannah Ann or Victoria? She never made it about them or anything they did. Ever time she spoke on the subject it had to do with her, her morals, and how she’s chosen to live her life. She never judged the other women for anything they did. I don’t think she ever even said either of their names last night. But do you know which two women both wore necklaces with crosses on them last night and had no problem judging Madison? Take a wild guess. I appreciate Madison making her decision and her stance all about her and not judging the others for it. Plenty are attacking her for what she did last night, and even some comparing her to Luke P., but I think that’s apples and oranges. They ultimate end game was the same in that both their messages were “I’m waiting til marriage to have sex.” But the way each one delivered it couldn’t have been any different. No one’s saying you can’t have that belief. I just think you’re gonna run into some pretty big roadblocks if those are your beliefs and you choose to come on this show.
For those that were asking, no, that’s never happened in the show’s history before where the final 3 contestants, whether it was the “Bachelor” or “Bachelorette,” ever lived together during overnight date week. It’s never happened in 38 previous seasons, so it’s clear why they did it this time. They wanted to put Madison in an uncomfortable position and force her to talk about this issue. Chris Harrison even admitted it on Ashley I.’s podcast last night which I was told to listen to because Chris had some choice words for spoilers. I’ll address that part tomorrow. But still, I don’t buy Chris’ argument on putting all 3 of them together. Lets just say you didn’t. Doesn’t Madison still have to address the elephant in the room with Peter, regardless of if she’s leaving with Hannah Ann and Victoria or not? Like I said last paragraph, Madison’s issue isn’t with the other women, it’s with Peter. So no, they didn’t HAVE to put her with the other women. They still could’ve gotten the exact same effect (with less side eyes and awkward conversation) if they were to split them up like they always have. Last night was about Madison and Peter’s issue, so yes, keeping the women together could have been avoided and they have still gotten the drama they had with Peter and Madison over dinner.
joanne
February 25, 2020 at 10:05 AM
The only thing that does make sense is Peter trying to get back with Madison and that they are seeing each other but not engaged.
If so, this wouldn’t be much different than Colton going after Cassie once she self eliminated. And it would also be more proof we should never listen to the show’s hype, since they made it appear to be an ending like no other we’ve seen.
crushonspivey
February 25, 2020 at 10:18 AM
Is it just me, or was the epi last night super dull. They tried so hard to contrive the drama by putting the girls together, but it is was just awkward, and mostly dull since they didn’t want top be around each other or talk really at all. That part was mostly just awkward and honestly a bit of meanness towards Madison. Proving once again that this franchise cares zero for any contestant. They just want to put them through a ringer emotionally for amusement.
The Madison-Peter stuff was dull as well because I just never bought into their love story anyway. They are too different, and Pete has been more about fooling around than trying to find a real relationship anyway. He was about the show more than anything real. It was obvious.
his season was not a good one. The romance of past seasons is going away for the sake of contrived drama, and it has lessened the franchise. Pete F’s season makes this one look awful in comparison, and that is saying something. This is Juan Pablo bad, where it was obvious that the lead really didn’t care much for the girls.
And Madison should have told Pete about her stances at hometowns. That was her mistake. She waited too long to share her values. At hometowns Pete could have decided to keep her for the fantasy suites or cut her loose. That was the time. Doing it when she did was just bad timing all the way around.
rosegoldea58
February 25, 2020 at 10:25 AM
Madison and Peter are both stubborn, and they’ll have to understand that about each other if the relationship is going to work. After Madison gave Peter the ultimatum, Peter could have demanded more time to work it out with her before going on the fantasy suite dates, but he didn’t. He just went and did what he wanted with the other girls. That was somewhat dismissive if he really was in love with her, and it shows he kinda didn’t care or was angry with her. It must have been a reality check moment of realizing, “this girl and i really dont know each other, are we really about to get engaged??” I think he had more real intimacy with Victoria, and I liked Hannah Ann on this episode a lot too. I dont care that much for Madison, but if that’s what he wants then it’s a free country. He does like a chase, and Madison is giving him that.
jman
February 25, 2020 at 11:39 AM
From a Man’s point of view, a girl needs to be upfront with her life choices. You don’t wait until the “Fantasy Suite” to proclaim your saving yourself for marriage and you can’t accept a man because he is intimate with other women he’s been dating. The Producers of the show should have given Peter the heads up, long before he chooses the last 3 women. Madison is not anywhere near the final 3 if she tells her secret. She’s gone early on. So, it was unfair for the other women on the show and it’s wrong for Madison morally to go on a show that is basically about eventually hooking up in a Fantasy Suite. Real bad television and poor decision making for ABC!!
michelleg
February 25, 2020 at 11:54 AM
*edit*
Page 3, para 4, sentence 6: judged Madison, not Victoria.
Great take on an interesting season of the Bachelor Cinematic Universe.
kabuki
February 25, 2020 at 1:09 PM
I had to fast forward through a lot of the “Victoria experience” because she turns my stomach with her hair stroking, valley girl vocal fry (every sentence ends with a question mark) and never ending drama. Enough already! Be gone! Madison had a very difficult time cutting to the chase on the virginity conversation. It was frustrating to watch her beat around the bush. I noticed she never once mentioned her very religious beliefs, which were on full display during the home town visit. I honestly don’t know how someone so religious (and with such a religious family) can work with someone like Pete who isn’t into religion. Didn’t Madison meet Peter’s parents at their “Vow Renewal Ceremony”? So, they already know each other. For sure, Peter’s crying, pleading mother was referring to Madison. Not one to upset mamacita, I predict that Peter will bring Madison home. They are dating, but the relationship is not going to last due to religious differences. You can’t fake your way into becoming religious for someone else when you aren’t relgious to begin with. It’s living a lie. No way is Peter ready for marriage anyway. Another Bachelor couple who won’t last. Roll on next season….
dbla31
February 25, 2020 at 1:19 PM
I find it interesting and a bit sad that Kelly wasn’t invited to WTA, but not really surprising. It confirms what I thought all season, that she is too smart for this show and producer manipulation. After about the first episode she looked so bored in any interaction with Peter. She didn’t even fake it. She was just there for the free trip. Good for her. But I still think she should’ve been invited to the wrap up.
justsaying
February 25, 2020 at 1:33 PM
Gosh this discussion board today is as frustrating as Peter and Madison situation.
Firstly, entitled-Pete is free to sleep around, if he chooses to. HOWEVER, don’t knowingly decide to sleep with the “crazy” one and the “boring” one and THEN, beg Madison to stay after that. Why?? He hurt her some more?? What was he thinking?? That Madison was just joking around and gotcha Pete lol!
Unlike you Peter, Madison waits to actually be 100% sure before throwing the ‘L’ word around. She doesn’t buy into that ‘I’m falling in love with you’ B.S. Yes actions do speak louder than words. Your actions have spoken.
I don’t buy Peter’s mopey face. He knew exactly what he was doing and how he hurt Madison. I swear he gets off on this. Sometimes, when it walks like a duck..
Chad, just be a hermit and have as little contact with humans as possible.
crushonspivey
February 25, 2020 at 2:31 PM
justsaying, Peter has been a man-child all season. Pretty typical for guys these days, unfortunately. He is still a boy pretending to be a man. He really just wanted the action and hookups. Obvious really. And I think production built the season around it because there was no love story to build on. Hope TPTB learn something here. Drama for the sake of drama can;t be what the franchise is about if you want a good season. There has to be a believable love story. So start showing it sooner.
jp22
February 25, 2020 at 3:24 PM
I dislike Madison as much as Kabuki hates Victoria F. And I like Victoria F. Speaking of Kabuki, what’s with Madison’s Tammy Faye Baker makeup? And two pounds of foundation? And never brushing her hair? And she constantly chews her lips and does weird stuff with her tongue, which is why she can’t keep lipstick on. The camera is continually cutting away from her face as she is about to do another weIrd lip move. I am looking forward to seeing her on ATFR because am sure she will have had a makeover.
Victoria was right to be upset about Madison’s expression of her feelings about Fantasy Suites/ultimatum. Madison was also busily taking away Hannah Ann’s and Victoria’s chances to have more time with Peter.
I wish Victoria F would stop apologizing for reacting to how often and how cruelly the producers were effing with her. They also effed with Colton big time which resulted in the fence jump. You don’t see Colton apologizing for it. (Never apologize for that Scorpio moon, it’s a superpower into seeing a situation/people clearly and the big feelings can be managed).
The show has become just so misogynistic and mean. No wonder Peter only looks downtrodden by the Hometowns. He is. Eff the producers.
Finally I’m thinking the show will be good for Victoria because she’ll drop the babydoll voice in the same way Krystal and Whitney Bischoff did.
I hear that voice in so many post Millennial women, even when they are talking to each other. It doesn’t serve them.
So everybody has an opinion, but the opinion I wish we all could share and write ABC about is how nasty the producers have become.
marie101?
February 25, 2020 at 5:03 PM
“And she constantly chews her lips and does weird stuff with her tongue, which is why she can’t keep lipstick on. The camera is continually cutting away from her face as she is about to do another weIrd lip move.”
jp22…I couldn’t agree more…I actually felt uncomfortable watching all the versions of her lip gyrations as I kept waiting for her to verbalize what she believed in and just say how she felt directly like an adult….instead she hemmed and hawed her way through explaining (or not explaining) anything. I was shaking my head. I guess I understand her not wanting to give him an ultimatum a la Luke P with Hannah B, but by the same token, she wasn’t exactly doing a good job of making him understand that she would be very disappointed if he didn’t act by her standards of behavior. And even then she didn’t tell him about saving herself for marriage until AFTER he had his two other “dates”. That probably might have opened up a deeper discussion about differences in mores and whether that is something he could compromise on.
I guess we will see what happens in the long run. I think she may have made herself more attractive to him by running away. Someone else mentioned something about “the chase”. And who knows, her being a virgin may be intriguing too. I would NOT want a do over on my first time, lol! But lasting in the long run, I don’t know, unless his Mom can keep him in line.
elizabeth82
February 25, 2020 at 10:20 PM
“But do you know which two women both wore necklaces with crosses on them last night and had no problem judging Madison?” Yeah, noticed that right away.
Aside from the last couple ones, these comments have been insightful. Peter and Madison are too different, and it was definitely dull to watch so much footage of her reaction and him not knowing how to deal.
jlal
February 26, 2020 at 5:15 AM
There is a theory that today’s young women went to using vocal fry (which drives me nuts BTW) as a counter to the “like” baby voiced every statement is a question upspeak that was prominent. What I have noticed is young people using both, which drives me even more nuts. Just speak with you normal voice, it will serve you much better. BTW, young men do it too.
I couldn’t agree more with comments that Peter just doesn’t seem that into any of these women. It may be the edit, but I haven’t seen a spark between him and one of them yet. Frankly, all of them are too young, if not in age then in maturity.
As for the theory Peter and Madison are dating. I just don’t see Peter being able to maintain a long enough relationship with Madison to lead to an engagement and stay celibate. It is not happening. He is not staying celibate for the year or two it would take before a marriage is likely to happen. I don’t see Madison or Peter rushing into a marriage.
I have to address RS saying Victoria denied twice she broke up marriages. Good, because nobody but the two parties in the marriage can break up the marriage. Doesn’t mean her morals may be questionable, but quit making women out to be the femme fatale. If those stories are true, the men who screwed around on their wives broke up their marriages. Victoria has questionable morals and is not a “good” friend, but she didn’t “break up a marriage”.
Kelley is way too smart for this show. I don’t think the producers could influence or control her. She basically mocked the show with her attitude and I’m sure they hated that.
I notice Madison’s lip stuff, but I think the one who had a really weird/active tongue/lip thing going on was Mykenna. For the love of God, I couldn’t even watch her it was so bad.
Did anyone notice that Peter told all three the exact same thing in the exact same tone and voice, when first seeing them? It was “You look beautiful” which has nothing wrong with it, by saying it to all of them with the exact same inflection just it me as a “line” and not a real feeling.
rob22
February 26, 2020 at 6:16 AM
While Peter and Madison don’t seem to be a fit, there certainly are people out there who “sowed their wild oats”, then opted to settle down with a virgin. I know that doesn’t really seem like a thing these days, but it’s not exactly a new concept. The problem, of course, is that people who opt in for this life approach actually have to change their ways & adapt to a new lifestyle. And that usually would happen over time as someone realizes that serial sleeping around isn’t actually all it’s cracked up to be and purposefully start looking for something and someone different. What evidence do we have that Pilot Pete, who likely has a girl in every city, went through that transformation & is going to actually change his stripes? None. That’s where the whole thing falls apart. In fact, Peter could have used the overnight dates to actually flip that switch & not sleep with anyone. Instead, he kept Victoria around only because he wanted some psycho sex with her. Why else keep her? There’s no long term play with a girl like her. Hannah Anne was certainly nice & willing. So again, he wanted to have sex with her. If he had really changed his stripes, he certainly wouldn’t have kept Victoria around so he could bang her. Anyway, this whole thing is playing out for maximum effect. But it’s really stupid. Peter, once again, is apparently trying for something and doing the exact opposite of what he needs to do to actually get it. Madison is young, but not stupid. I hope. She should run for the hills.
keddo
February 26, 2020 at 8:09 AM
As a Christian, what I find most interesting in these shows is how people who call themselves Christians conduct themselves. Most, by my observation, are either fairly new and/or shallow in their faith, such as Luke P in Hannah B’s season, or have grown up in Christian culture and understand how to put on a Christian face, but when there is a conflict between what they strongly desire and how the Bible tells them to behave, unapologetically follow their own desire, a la Hannah B.
Madison seems to be strong in some aspects of her faith, but shallow in others. It’s great that she’s firm in her sexual purity, but a mature (in the faith) Christian woman wouldn’t be okay with the idea of being “unequally yoked”; she would be looking for a man who would be strong in godly character, able to lead his family in faith. Even if she could convince him that sexual purity was the way to go for both of them, and that he should toe the Christian line and do all the external things that Christians do, he hasn’t shown that he is internally driven to follow Christ above all else, and that’s not something you can force, or convince, someone else to be. It starts from a fundamental change of the inner person, a giving up of one’s self to follow Christ. I hope she either realizes this and cuts bait, or that God does a miracle in Peter’s heart leading to his true conversion.
justsaying
February 26, 2020 at 8:18 AM
Man-child Pete indeed @crushonspivey
Who would have thunk Nick Viall’s is more honorable now. He only slept with Vanessa out of his F3s and now, contestants talk about sex all the time but Nick was vilified for asking.
jlal
February 26, 2020 at 9:17 AM
One thing I don’t understand is how RS is saying,because of her waiting until marriage for sex, Madison can’t be the bachelorette. Remember Sean Lowe was the same way. He made it clear he would not have sex before marriage. I don’t think he was a virgin, but then Madison hasn’t said she is a virgin either. People can decide at any point in their lives to start living a celibate life until marriage.
Then there was Colton who was a virgin. Why is it different for a women? Just curious.
crushonspivey
February 26, 2020 at 9:55 AM
I actually think Madison would make a good Bachette, if they found the right type of guys for her. Doubt they could as her type of guy isn’t the usual for this show. Would make for some good fantasy suite convos though, and for deeper conversaions on values, life goals and actual help with real coupling. Otherwise, sex leads, it that tends to make it more shallow with the weeks they have for this show.
nursej
February 26, 2020 at 6:36 PM
Instead of Peter and Madison having that important conversation in front of the cameras, why didn’t they have it during the private fantasy suite portion? (minus the sex of course)
He was clearly not wanting to speak about his relations with the other women on camera. Could Madison not have waited for some privacy?
nursej
February 26, 2020 at 6:49 PM
I think Madison was surprised when Peter said “I can see you and I together at the end… but coming into this week, I could see that with other people too.” Throughout the show, he made it seem like she was the front runner from early on and provided lots of validation throughout… minus the first impression rose which went to Hannah Anne – perhaps Madison underestimated how far he would go to explore those feelings, given how strongly he clearly felt for Madison. I get why she is disappointed. If he felt that strongly for Madison, why would he risk it?
ladyjane747
February 26, 2020 at 7:23 PM
Not sure why Peter or Madison would want to be a couple, anyway. It’s clear they’re not on the same page. When Madison told Peter about her faith and what she expected in a husband, instead of Peter’s bland, insincere assurances that he COULD be more religious and SHOULD be more religious, he should’ve admitted that he wasn’t looking for that kind of relationship and let her go. And you could see by Madison’s face when Peter responded that she realized he was not into it like she was. These two are not a match. But Peter doesn’t seem like he’s into any of these women, except Victoria F. He keeps giving her chances. He should’ve picked her and then could’ve had a wild, drama-filled relationship for a few months and then called it quits. Peter is so annoying.
bigdan
February 28, 2020 at 4:46 AM
I think if Madison would have told him the whole story, it would have had a different outcome. He was an idiot to have sex with those girls… didn’t need to happen. Madison is the true “catch” in this game.
justsaying
February 28, 2020 at 9:58 AM
Madison can tell him she’s a virgin whenever SHE chooses to. It would be very presumptuous of her to tell him before chosen to the fantasy suites. No girl should be walking around thinking all guys want to f*** me.
jman
February 28, 2020 at 1:30 PM
“Madison can tell him she’s a virgin whenever SHE chooses to.” So, I guess living a lie is the Christian way of dealing with the fact that you are going to stay a virgin until marriage and you won’t get engaged to a man that sleeps with other women. Can you say, “Double Standards!”
jdubtrey
February 29, 2020 at 2:22 AM
Neither one of them are wrong, but they do seem incompatible. Remember, the show is ostensibly trying to match up life partners. If simply not having sex one or two nights keeps the third girl in the game, is it worth it? The answer will vary on the person but the responses will fall in both sides (from both males and females).
If Peter can be attracted to Maddison without her throwing out sex kitten vibes, maybe that connection is deep enough to exchange for getting laid a couple of times.
Maddison holding on to this info until fantasy suites is counter-culture for the show as we know it. However, is the goal to find a wife or the freakiest chick?
If don’t think anyone here is necessarily wrong.
jdubtrey
February 29, 2020 at 2:35 AM
Ok I get it: stating that VF “breaks up marriages” could be self-serving for the show and at worst, misogynistic. These men can make their own decisions too.
However, isn’t this really a semantic discussion at that point? So she is alleged to have dated multiple men who she was fully aware were married. If that’s true, I don’t see how that new label turns her into a sympathetic figure all of a sudden. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
jdubtrey
February 29, 2020 at 2:46 AM
This brings up the marketing that separates what the show claims to be from what it actually is.
The show hopes to produce an “engaged” couple when I think the best they can hope for is a “committed” one. The pair are likely to learn far more about each other after the show than they did during filming. As long as she gets the answers she needs before she either a) comprises her faith or b) actually marries him, she will have wasted nothing but her own time. I’m ok with that.
I don’t think they are compatible but she’s got time to figure that out, rushed engagement or not.
jdubtrey
February 29, 2020 at 2:52 AM
If RS has said that, I’d have the same question.
Now, if I remember correctly, the obvious difference is that Colton seemingly just happened to be a virgin while Maddison has the stated goal of waiting until marriage. Those are different sets of expectations for the viewer.
jdubtrey
February 29, 2020 at 3:21 AM
If someone connected with the show states that every contestant needs to be willing to have sex with the star as a prerequisite, than I’ll agree with you.
Of the actual stated customs, every contestant is expected to pursue marriage in good faith, and she checks that box, I think.
“Living a lie” is loading it up a bit. It isn’t like she just told Peter that she is actually a guy.
justsaying
February 29, 2020 at 8:16 AM
@jman You’re twisting and purposefully undermining Madison’s life decisions. She doesn’t need to tattoo ‘saving myself for marriage’ on her forehead. Nope.
Don’t whitewash the fact she admitted she respected Peter for not saving himself and she isn’t looking for a virgin man. Her logic was how can they get engaged when he just slept with a couple of other ladies a few days ago. Get it??
marie101?
March 2, 2020 at 7:26 PM
“Did anyone notice that Peter told all three the exact same thing in the exact same tone and voice, when first seeing them?”
SNL picked up on this and did a skit that basically skewered that. I tried to copy the link, but couldn’t, but just look up SNL Pilot Hunk.